Conversation Of The Week LII: What Lessons Can The United States Learn From Germany In Passing Immigration Reform?

This is very interesting; I just read a comment in a different website a day or two ago about Turkish children in schools. The comment mentioned a very exceptional Turkish child in a German public school that had foster parents because his own father used to beat him, because the child constantly asked questions and the father felt inferior to him in intelligence.

This is a shame but there are many parallels between Turkish people in Germany and Mexicans in America. I feel that Mexicans occupy their own areas of cities or towns, yet there is more integration within schools, and marriage. It will be interesting to see how the two countries handle this problem.

When reading this article, I cannot help but be reminded of the recent BBC documentary we watched for class, "Racism: A History" because the goal of most major societies is to integrate immigrants. In one scene, the Austrailain Aboriginals were brought to Shark Island or "Point Civilization" where the goal was to integrate the 300 of the aboriginals who had lived without God or Christianity for 10,000 years. Instead, 260 died and the British felt it was better they died and learned of Christianity than live their "heathened ways." I see the relationship between Germany wanting to immigrate the Turks, and I, too, see the parallels of current immigration attitudes in America towards Mexican immigrants. I believe that racism and citizenship are much too heavily intertwined.

I find this to be very similar with Mexican immigration in the United States. They seem to face the very same discriminations and circumstances that the Turk's are facing in Germany. One part of the article I found very interesting was the statement that the Turk's are generally not willing to marry outside their own circles. That can be said about most people though. In a society, the races/religions generally tend to stick together. I don't know how accurate this is since I found it on Wikipedia but in 2010 in the US only 2.1% of married white women and 2.3% of married white men were married to a non-white spouse. Why should the Germans expect a minorty to do the same when most of the world does not?

I also see parallels between this article and the topic of immigration in the United States. I think it is funny to note that when speaking of immigration in the US, everyone automatically focuses on Mexico. Immigrants from Mexico are our version of this Turkish labor force that Germany has brought in, yet Germany seems to acknowledge that they encouraged foreign labor, while the US tends to deny that. The part I found particularly interesting in this article was when Germany was described as not having the image of an immigrant society, unlike the United States. Despite this global image that the United States has the discrimination described is the same, if not worse in the US. You would think, being the melting pot we are, that our country would be the most understanding and accepting of others. And yet, when issues like immigration come about, our true nature shows.

Historically, the most successful groups have been those who have proactively chosen to aggressively assimilate into a host culture, embracing its educational resources, adopting its languages, and abiding by its social norms, rather than isolating themselves through usage of their own languages and restrictive customs. Countless examples of this litter the pages of history books. The Celts successfully integrated into Roman society with these tactics, ultimately becoming more Roman than the Romans themselves. Such assimilation led the Celts to positions of great power both politically and intellectually.

While reading this article began to see various parallels, both good and bad, between the Turkish immigrants and Mexican Immigrants. Like the Turkish immigrants, Mexican immigrants seek out a land in which they can find employment in order to provide for themselves and their families, however, the United States sees this as an encroachment on jobs they see as American jobs. Initially, the German government said that they felt that there was no need for integration due to their view of Turkish immigrants not being long term, however, they have found that living in places like Berlin was more permanent and now feel that integration is important. It can be said that the United States also feels that integration is important but not at the cost of immigrants losing their cultural identity. One area of the article that really stood out was how a Turkish immigrant talked about finding an apartment, they sounded German, but when they meet the apartment is taken. If this sounds familiar, this has been reported time and time again as a practice within the United States. We say that we are accepting of immigrants but only when it does not impact them directly. We should align our immigration laws so that those that want to come to our country and want to be a part of it should integrate themselves in so far as it benefits them and those around them, but not at the risk of losing their cultural identity. No where on the Statue of Liberty does it say:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.
....as long as you speak our language and abandon your heritage

I see the parallels between the two countries and their immigrants as a failed project of cheap labor that just won't go home. Historically speaking, when this country has experienced times of wealth and a need for a larger labor force, we have opened our doors to immigrants. When those times turned sour and the economy took a hit, we quickly close the doors and want all of the foreigners to leave. I continue to be amazed in human history, of the times that a group of people have migrated to a new land and expected the original inhabitants to assimilate into the new culture. How dare we? I agree that in terms of monetary success and relatively comfortable living, those who assimilate are the most successful as someone else in here has pointed out, but at what cost? Why? Why should ANY culture be so arrogant as to think theirs is the only way? It is unfortunate to think that is how this country was founded, and in many ways, though more subtle than 200 years ago, it still operates very much the same way.

It seems to always be the case that when we need people to do labor that we ourselves consider demeaning or too much physical effort is required we look to other countries to come and do the work we would never do. This has been this true throughout the history of the United States and after reading this article it is apparent this is also Germany's history. If people are willing to work for another country they deserve the benefits of citizenship. I am not an immigration expert but I think that having to work in a country for fifteen years before being offered citizenship is ridiculous! I do not however think that dual citizenship should be granted. The reason I say this is because instead of separating the world into countries where dual citizenship is acceptable and those where it is not, it is best to only allow people to be citizens of one country. Dual citizenship would create multiple problems,for instance, Would there be an issue with an individual being a citizen of the United States and Canada? Probably not because many of our ideals are the same. On the other hand, would it be acceptable to be a citizen of Iran and the United States? Most likely it would be due to the huge difference in ideology. This would create privilege for some and disadvantage for others so I think it is best to avoid the idea altogether.

I tend to agree with many of the posts above. It does seem as though there are a lot of similarities between the Turks in Germany and Mexican immigrants in the US. It is so unfortunate that lots of the "undesirable" jobs go to immigrants; at my high school, every janitor I saw was Hispanic, and many spoke little English. I later found out that some of them were getting assistance learning English from Spanish teachers in the school, and that if they had not already earned their US citizenship, many were on their way to doing so. Whenever I think about the issue of immigration, I tend to think of people whose homeland is in a state of despair, where they are not able to find work or perhaps even unable to feel safe in their own homes. In these cases, coming to a place like the US is a dream, and I think of the novel Bright Shiny Morning by James Frey, which details, among several mini stories, tales of Mexican immigrants and their first generation American born children trying to make a life for themselves in a society that continually shows them disrespect and inequality. Despite these unfortunate conditions, it seems that many immigrants are still happy to be here in the US because they have that "American dream" to hold on to.

What I'm getting at is that it seems to me immigration can be a glamorous and uplifting idea for people, but that once they have actually committed to such a life-altering decision the grass may not be greener on the other side after all. It takes such hard work and dedication to achieve citizenship, and as someone else commented it is ridiculous that one can work in a country for 15 years and still not be considered a citizen.

In a perfect world, people would be able to choose where they want to live and have every right to do so, to find work there and send their children to a local school without fear of deportation. I understand that immigration worries some Americans because they fear that with an influx of new citizens, jobs will be harder to find, but I would ask those people to consider the conditions that these immigrants are coming from. Everyone needs to eat to survive, everyone has the right to a roof over their heads, and if we deny that opportunity to people by making them jump through hoops on the road to being US citizens then what have we become as a country?

This was a very interesting and insightful posting. It is good to see the immigration issues arise from another country but the US. I don't mean this by saying that the issues such as these are good for the country, but in that the US and Germany may help each other by working together on such issues. It is true that it is much harder to send the immigrants back to their foreign land after being either in Germany or the US for so long; it is unfair to those immigrants. Now how did these countries did not see this issue coming, assuming that the immigrants will come and work the low wage jobs for a few years and go back to their homeland? If there isn't a policy for that, the government should not expect the better. I also think its absurd how much discrimination there is for the immigrants, for example Latinos in the US and Turks in Germany. Both of the ethnicity get discriminated against in these lands that they work for. There is so much stigma going on in the world, so much media portraying different people of different cultures in the exaggerated manner, so much hatred toward people who "don't speak our language," or "don't look like us" or have different religion and traditions, that we forget that we are are one people. An example where Mr. Yilmaz was talking about how for instance one can speak the language well, but when seen by the landlord face to face, they are rejected for the apartment. This article also talks about discrimination being more hidden now. For example since the 1970's and 1980's there were would be ads saying "Only for Germans" or "No Foreigners." That was straightforward, but slowly it has become of a hidden thing. A lot of times it feels like that is what discrimination has become, in the backstage, until something big comes up. This is again seen in both the US and Germany. I believe though, that by looking at Germany, that has similar immigrant issues that the US is experiencing, they can help each other out with these problems in the hopes of lessening the discrimination.

In this article, I see a lot of parallels between Germany and the United States. The Turkish people are discriminated against for being immigrants. They did not speak German, but had immigrated for the purpose of finding work. I think it is very sad that Germany has still not implemented a dual citizenship program or tried to make the German people learn the Turkish language. In the United States we have Spanish programs so that people are able to learn Spanish and work with Spanish speaking people. As far as the Turkish people being discriminated against when they try to buy housing, I remember reading about similar situations in which African Americans and Hispanic people face similar situations here in the United States. African Americans and Hispanic individuals are being forced to live in areas that are impoverished because they cannot afford to live in more affluent areas. They are discriminated against and must work jobs that pay less and therefore make less money than the average White person. Picca and Feagin speak about the move of racism from the frontstage to the backstage in their book “Two-Faced Racism,” and I believe that this may account for the general “disappearance” of racism against the Turkish people. If this is indeed what has happened, racism has not actually disappeared but has become more evident in comfortable family and friend settings, while racist expression becomes hidden from public situations. Honestly, it is going to be an extremely difficult transitional period to get rid of racism. If racism is occurring to this in other countries, I believe it to be truly an inherited human condition to discriminate against others.

This was a real eye opener for understanding human nature in general. It's not just an "American" problem, it is a problem of certain people being given unearned privilege and using it against those who do not have it. It is sad to see the same problems we have here between the American and Mexican border in the German and Turkey border. It is a real difference in culture where one person feels their culture is superior to another. Why should immigrants have to let go of their heritage and integrate in order to live in a place they were not born? I think about people who move from places like Texas to New York or Boston. Each place tends to have a unique culture, food, accents, etc. Most of the time when someone from such a place moves to say Colorado, they are appreciated or valued for their difference. My neighbor is from New York city. I love to listen to her talk with her strong New Yorker accent and talk about her life in the big city. Why can't we do the same? Appreciate our differences, learn from one another. My biggest issue with the American/Mexican borders has always been the fence. Why do we have a fence on that border and not on Canada? Then I am forced to think about what "type" of people are represented on either side. Sadly one side are more like "Us" and the other side is different. It's an obvious problem.

It seems like there is a missing piece from the universal role of “Give and Take.” Germans only took the help from Turkish but did want to help them. After WWII, Turkish came to Germany to assist in rebuilding the country. After the all disaster was cleaned up, Germans want Turkish immigrants to go back: “That was the biggest mistake: to think that if you don’t need them, they will go.” Moving to a foreign country for making money or other reasons requires the people’s life. Turkish immigrants cannot move only their body one country to another. While they were rebuilding Germany, their life was also rebuilt in German. Human resources are not the same as those of a machine. It is not like that you borrow when you need and you bring it back when you are done. The Turkish were there when Germany needed them. Now it is Germany’s turn. Germany needs to offer special policy for Turkish immigrants without second concerning.

I think we can learn a lot from germany based on this article about immigration. The United States was founded on as a "melting pot" of people. Its time for regulation and learning from others so we can gain some respect back from mexico and her people.

I describe this relationship as a mirror, but perhaps this could also be history. It's not the history of the United States, but that hasn't stopped anyone from trying to understand the cultures of other places both past and present. This is an article that many different individuals should read. Why? It raises awareness of something that could potentially alter the lives of millions.

One of my fellow classmates (perhaps more than one), have suggested that it's a shame that Mexicans whom are illegal immigrants have to adapt their lifestyles, abandon tradition, and possibly learn a new language upon moving here. I wanted to share my father's argument regarding this matter. I'm neither in agreement or disagreement of anyone's beliefs. He puts emphasis on the word "illegal". They're illegal, they shouldn't be here in the first place. They shouldn't have voting rights, and they need to leave. He's entitled to his opinion.

I support diversity, and I try to listen to the ideas of all.

The idea that we want them when we need them, and then want them to leave when their services are no longer needed was not just used in Germany. The United States has been doing that to Mexicans for years. Not only that, but whenever there is economic turmoil the problem is blamed on immigrants, just like in Germany. I met a German woman about 10 years ago that told me that Germans see Turkish people the same way that we see Mexicans, and that is as more of a problem.